Month: November 2009

Tamar Kevonian,

Asbarez.com – 20/11/2009 –

“What if an Armenian was Muslim or Bahai, or Hindu?” the question is asked one day during a conversation about ethnic identity and why it was tied into religious identity.
There are those, mostly scholars in Armenia, who vehemently deny the Armenian ethnic identity to anyone who is not of the Christian faith, particularly of the Orthodox persuasion. They claim that being Armenian automatically assumes and implies Christianity.
This logic would be acceptable except for the fact that Armenians, as an ethnic group, existed long before Christianity or their conversion to it in a bloody and violent manner. The switch to the religion that now identifies us was not a peaceful one and St. Gregory the Illuminator himself waged the war.
Armenia, two millennia ago, had a varied population. Strategically located at the crossroads of the region, many cultures passed through the area while some chose to make it their permanent home. As a result, the Armenia of that day was culturally diverse, religiously tolerant and very cosmopolitan.
Legend has it that upon King Drtad’s miraculous cure at the hands of St. Gregory the Illuminator, he immediately converted to the magical new religion and proclaimed Armenia to now be a Christian state. Everyone was to set aside their previous religious beliefs which they’d held for hundreds of years in favour of a new one and live happily ever after in the afterglow of their new found religion. But the story doesn’t end there. Or even begin there.
King Drtad was the infant son of Khosrov II when he was assassinated by Anak, an Armenian operating as an agent for the Persian Empire. St. Gregory was the son of Anak who, as an adult, returned to Armenia and worked for King Drtad without informing him of his true identity.
The legend taught to Armenian children today does not include this fact. Completely ignoring it, it skips directly to St. Gregory’s time spent in the dungeon for being a Christian. In reality, his incarceration came about because of the king’s discovery of the assistant’s true heritage. Which king wouldn’t imprison the son of his father’s assassin?
The story goes on to say that after Drtad is cured of his illness at the hands of Gregory, he becomes a believer of Christianity. As a young king, Drtad fought hard to liberate Armenia and create a quasi independent state. His country’s conversion to the upstart religion was the final break from his Roman and Persian neighbours at a time when religion affiliation was a key tool that set a nation apart.
The process of becoming peace-loving Christians was anything but peaceful or loving. The legend of Drtad omits the key part of the story by ignoring the ‘how’ of the conversion. Although begun peacefully, it soon turned violent when nobles, priests and their followers of the prevailing faiths resisted the efforts of the state. The forced conversion of hundreds of thousands of people had other purposes besides spreading the word of God. Under the guise of religion, Kind Drtad was able to purge his land of political opposition and enemy agents and confiscate the wealth of the existing temples. Everyone was either forced to convert or lose their heads. His right-hand man in this war was none other than St. Gregory, the founder of the Armenian Orthodox Church. His greatest supporter and passionate advocate of the effort was Ashkhen, Drtad’s wife who was not Armenian.
In one brief decade, Armenia went from a culturally diverse nation without an official national language to one that espoused uniformity and conformity where the use of Armenian became a requirement and strictly enforced. Survival is a basic human instinct and many did convert rather than lose their heads. Some of the descendants of those who chose to convert almost two millennia ago were, in the early part of the 20th century, forced to make yet another difficult choice: convert or die, but this time to Islam.
Why is identity tied to faith? What about Armenians that are Orthodox but don’t speak a word of the language or know any of the history? What of the Armenian of mixed heritage with the overwhelming love and enthusiasm for the Armenian culture who practices another religion? Do they qualify?
At a recent photo exhibit, Harry, a well known photographer, gave a contextual explanation of one of his photos that looked like nothing more than Muslim village women escaping a flood while holding their children to their breast. The real story is that they were Kurdish women, who after the death of their children and the hardships they endured, were allowed by Turkey to emigrate to Germany. “But the best part,” said Harry, “is that when going through customs and registering their names in their new home country, each one of them gave an Armenian name.” They reclaimed their original identity. “Now, they even have a nice little community with a church.”
Today, in the remote corners of what was once a part of greater Armenia and is now Turkey, there exists a substantial group of Armenians who have almost all converted to Islam. Although they maintain their Armenian identity and their distinctive Armenian dialect, they do not practice the espoused religion of Christianity. Do we consider them to be Armenian?
It is estimated that there are several million “hidden” Armenians in Turkey and the surrounding areas. A little-thought of side effect of the Armenian-Turkish protocols and the resulting improved relations between the two countries may be just the encouragement and motivation these Armenians need to stand up and reclaim their roots and fortify our numbers. Can we deny them their Armenian identity? Can we afford not to?

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30 Responses for “Who is an Armenian?”

1. daron says:

   November 21, 2009 at 12:36 am

   Well writen Tamar.

2. Armen says:

   November 21, 2009 at 12:38 am

   It should be stressed that Armenians are NOT part of the Orthodox denomination. Those are the Greeks, Georgians, Russians, Serbs and other peoples in the Balkans. The overwhelming number of Armenians are part of the Apostolic denomination.

3. Aya says:

   November 21, 2009 at 12:46 am

   Armenian is an Armenian, thats the most important thing. Muslim or Christian, we are brothers and sisters.

4. Guest says:

   November 21, 2009 at 4:03 am

   #1.  You are describing ancient Armenia with modern ideas of religious tolerance, ethnicity, etc. in ways that were most likely not really applicable to ancient peoples.
   #2. I went to an Armenian school and I can most definitely tell you the part about Gregory being the son of an assassin is taught. The part about the forcible conversion is also taught, and even how Etchmiadzin happens to be built upon one of the most important pagan shrines in Armenia.

   #3. I do not purposefully mean to be rude, but for someone making such big statements about Armenian history, you should know that Gregory was not the founder of our church. There is a reason why it is called the Armenian Apostolic Church and not the Armenian Illuminated Church.

   #4. Identity is tied to faith because faith forms such a big part of identity. This is especially true for Armenians. I’m sure you know the relevant history/mythology.

   #5. You don’t have to Armenian Orthodox to be  Armenian, but if you are not you have to sort of make up for it by emphasizing some other aspect of Armenianness because like I said, the Armenian Orthodox Church has been so essential to Armenian identity in the past 1700 years that by turning away from it, you necessarily are cutting yourself off from a huge aspect of our identity. This isn’t a particularly big gap if you are Catholic Armenian Rite or Armenian Evangelical, but if you are Muslim it is. However, I would say changing your name and the name of everyone in your village most definitely qualifies.

5. papken hartunian says:

   November 21, 2009 at 10:18 am

   In my opinion, there are three classes of Armenians. First class is, I call them, Armenians Armenians who are born as Armenians and lived as Armenians and served for Armenia and Armenians during their lives.

   Second class, I call them born again Armenians, are Armenians who are born as Armenians, however they are grown up as none Armenians.  Some of these Armenians later on chose to be identified as Armenians and continue serve Armenia and other Armenians during rest of their lives.

   Finally, there are people who have nothing to do with being an Armenian at all.  However, these people love Armenia and serve Armenians. I call them “new Armenians.”

   In short, all people are born by default, they do not have anything to do with the place of their birth and have nothing to do in selection of their parents.  Therefore, the question “Where are you from? has only one meaningful answer- I am from my mother.  What matters is that to whom we have pledged our allegiance.

   Suppose, US and Armenia are in the state of war against each other. And you claim that you are an Armenian and you are citizen of United States or any other state for that matter.  Suppose further that, you must joint the conflict and you have given a choice to fight against either side. Which side you are going to fight? The answer to this question is the same answer of the question “Who is an Armenian?”

6. AM says:

   November 21, 2009 at 9:10 pm

   “It is estimated that there are several million “hidden” Armenians in Turkey and the surrounding areas.”
   Estimated by who, how, where?  Before this statement is answered, that sentence shouldn’t have been published.  It is wishful thinking.

7. Narine says:

   November 22, 2009 at 4:01 am

   Have you ever think of the risk that can come from the “hidden” Armenians you mentioned?
   Ayd hayere arden vaxuc hay chen garox ellal ete nkatenq, vor kan AZG -i bnoroshichner: lezu, mshakuyt` kron…(nshvacnere amenaglxavornern en) I dep, mi morceq vor darerov petakanutyun chunecac azgin hamaxbel yev glxavorel e henc krone` Hayoc Araqelakan ekexecin. Isk mahmedakanutyune da miayn kron che` ayl apreladzev, manavand Turkiayum, vortex bolore hamarvum en TURK…
   Myus harcin andradardzov asem, vor turkere ogtvelov mahmedakan hayer erevuytic, shat arag Hayastan klcnen hazaravor iskakan turqeri` verjnakan npatakin` hayeri verjnakan vochnchacume irakanacnelu hamar.
   I think we all need to be very careful regarding this issue…
   Think twice…

8. Haroutune Keoroghlanyan says:

   November 23, 2009 at 4:11 am

   A hard  question to ponder… the long and short of it is that our so called ten million figure would have to be multiplied at least four, maybe five times…Christianity has proved to be a terribly expensive indulgence for us. I wander how seriously Armenia would be treated with a population of FIFTY MILLION and working ports on the Black sea, the Mediterranean and the Caspian… at the turn of the last century Baku was an Armenian-owned city … is it possible that Azerbaijan would today be a pan-Turkist dream?
   Seriously though, who in his right mind would dare stop more than 200,000 Hamshenis from joining the fold… the only conclusion that makes sense is to embrace everybody who claims to be Armenian, Armenian.

9. Patricia Constantinian says:

   November 23, 2009 at 5:51 am

   And what of Armenians who choose to practice no religion; those who, for whatever reason, find themselves unable to accept myths of virgin births, miracles, heaven and hell, Armenians who aren’t threatened by the idea that the Christianization of Armenia had strong political and strategic motivations?  It’s not so much that Armenians who do not participate in Orthodox Christianity do not qualify for Armenian identity.  It’s more likely that they cannot find a place in Armenian community life and still be open about their divergent faith or non-belief.  The fact that an Armenian identity is defined in such narrow, exclusionary terms will, in my opinion, ultimately bring about the dissolution, dilution, and demise of our ethnic and cultural identity.  It might just be that worked in the 4th and 5th Centuries has exhausted its purpose over the course of 1600 years or so.

10. Babken DerGrigorian says:

    November 23, 2009 at 11:10 am

    wow.. what a great piece. thanks Tamar!

11. Roger says:

    November 23, 2009 at 11:38 am

    Great, thought-provoking article about how History,  ignored, may repeat itself. Kevonian points out a cycle that is tied in to the peculiar nature of Armenia’s religion and how it is tied in to nationality.

12. Jirair says:

    November 23, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Drtad’s conversion to Christianity was purely a political act. Perhaps it is important to live in France (as I am) and observe the French concern of the spread of English language as a universal language to understand the motivation of Drtad.  Tamar Kevonian’s article does not give enough weight to the fact that the introduction of Christianity was the means to distinguish the Armenian nation from that of the Persians. A hundred years later the invention of the Armenian alphabet was also a political act. This time, the objective was to distinguish the Armenian nation from the Greeks and the Romans, who by then had converted to Christianity and their influence was a danger to the Armenian national identity. Even though I agree with Kevonian’s point that today, being christian and speaking Armenian is not a prerequisite for being Armenian, but I do not agree with her argumentation to demonstrate her point. In fact any individual who feels Armenian is Armenians. The saying goes: You are what you feel you are.
    In the 4th and 5th century, the Armenian leaders were pursuing a “nation building” strategy which was appropriate at that time. Today the strategy is not only “building” but also “uniting the nation with all its components” since the context different. Hence my agreement with the article.
    But worth noting here an other point. For centuries, Armenians have pursued an “isolationist” strategy and build barriers. Otherwise how can we explain, for example … “why didn’t the Armenians try to convert the Persians to Christianity, when they had over 400 years before the arrival of the Arabs who converted the Persians to Islam?”.  (Those who had the opportunity to study the history of the spread of Islam, know that the Arabs, in the 7th century did not attempt to convert Jews nor Christians to Islam. The only condition for those,  was to pay their taxes. While pagans, i.e. Persians had no choice: convert to Islam or loose your head). To my knowledge there is no trace in our history where we have used “missionaries” or any other means to convert the Persians to Christianity, while the spread of Christianity was based on missionary activities. Why didn’t we ? The military and economic power of Persia cannot explain our lack of interest to convert them to Christianity. We just did not want to. We kept to our “isolationist” strategy.
    One must also agree, that the “isolationist” strategy worked well and kept our nation, although small, but going and helped it survive.

13. Haro says:

    November 23, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Please Tamar, before writing such articles do some research (no offense by my argument, please take my criticism very objectively). And by research, I mean some recently discovered Armenian historians and archeological research. This is a very provoking subject and should not be addressed so hastily, especially when you have related it to the Khaytarag Protocols.
    “Who is Armenian” subject surfaced just recently, approximately 5 years ago, when Turkey announced that they have a sizable population of Hamshenies. And then this issue exploded as Muslin Armenians that still live in Turkey. Everyone by now knows that this is yet another propaganda method to confuse the Armenians all over the world (that are still Armenians) by destroying the only root that may have remained in them, namely the Armenian Identity. It is ironic, that you have fallen into this trap and have written such article precisely like a Turkish revisionist historian.
    First of all, Armenian does not equate to “religion”. By “religion”, you should not assume anything concrete. Because, this term means a million things and is interpreted in a million ways. It’s the same thing as trying to define the word “God”. There are more than 3 billion inhabitants on this planet, and I assure you that the word “God” has more than 3 billion interpretation. Therefore, to put Armenian Identity (a term that has a concrete meaning) question at the level of  the term “Religion” is the mother of all propagandas. And Turks know how to create such things.
    Therefore, instead of associating the Armenian Identity with the term “religion”, we should associate with written and developed doctrines. Such as Orthodoxy, Armenian Apostolic Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam or more accurately the Ottoman Islamism. You see, even Islamism cannot be discussed without referencing the nationalism of the Muslim. Yes, there is a difference between Arab Islam, Persian Islam or Turkish Islam (besides their shiite or suni sects).
    When you outline these background information, it becomes very clear that in the region of Greater Armenia land, the only Islam that existed until today is the Turkish Islam. And therefore there are no such fallacies as Muslin Armenians. Because, if there were, then 80 percent of the current Turkish population would automatically become Armenians. This of course is the whole point of the Turkish government’s destructive diplomacy (i.e. confuse the Armenian Identity to confuse the Armenians by making them fight each other on a stupid question of Armenian Identity).
    The question of Armenian Identity is very clear and there are very nicely written books about it (e.g. Armen Ayvasyan, Shiraz, Charenz, Tekeyan and many other Armenian writers, both inside and outside the current Armenia). It is ironic that all of these Armenian writers will never use the term “Muslin Armenians”, because there is a historically well understood term for such, and it is called “Dajgazanel”, “Turkaszvel”, “Turkanal” and ‘Ouranal”. When an Armenian was converted to Islam, she/he was converted into Turkishness before becoming Islam.
    Having said these, let me do some correction in the Christian history that Tamar has stumbled into. First of all, Gregory was not that much Christian (meaning Jesus follower). He and Drtad had no option but to accept Christianity, because almost all nobleman and a sizable of Vagharshabat and Araratian population were already Christians. They realized that by making Christianity state doctrine they will unify Armenia against future Persian doctrines. Secondly, there is a difference between Christianity and the doctrine of followers of Jesus. The term Kristos was only introduced much later during Mesrop Mashtoz, and is the name of the Grecko-Roman general Khristo who fought and won a war against the other legion of Rome (and in the name of Jesus and the Cross).
    Recent archeological discoveries are pointing to the case that Christianity (as doctrine) started originally from Armenia long before it was introduced in Middle East (namely the Mihr version of the belief). Moreover, Jesus was one of the followers of this doctrine. So the only thing that was revolutionized in Armenia was that indeed Jesus was the Son of the God that was depicted by this old Armenian Pagan belief to return to Earth (verification of this info needs a book to be outlined).
    Have anyone really asked why the Armenians were the first nation to Christianize. Well, because their old Pagan belief was the origin of the Christianity. As for the destruction of temples and inner civil uprising between Grigoris and pagans in Armenia. We have some information from Agatangeghos, and let us not ignore it. There is a mention of a high priest called Artzan who in our recent interpretation would be the true native Armenian or the follower of the Old “Christian” doctrine. Both, king Drtad (who was raised and educated in Rome) and Grigoris were more or less foreigners, while Artzan was a native Armenian, raised in Armenia. Drtad and Grigoris hated the Armenian old ways and culture, because they had either Roman or Assyrian background. Therefore the destruction of temples had nothing to do with the name of Jesus, and in fact absolutely contradictory to old Armenian “Christian” doctrine. They were destroyed because both Drtad and Grigoris hated them (because they also had personal grudge and hated the competing other authority, namely, Artzan the high priest).
    Having said all these, I give the reader the judgement of what Armenian Identity is if it is not in fact very much related to the old Armenian “Christian” doctrine, which is not very much different from today’s Apostolic doctrine of today (i.e. Armenian = Christian(the First Christian doctrine which includes everything about Armenianness). And please, no more such absurd calls of “Oh, then you are denying the right of some poor Pilipino Muslin Armenian to be Armenian”. Oh, please… I am not denying anything, they have the very freedom of converting back to Armenian Apostolic Church, and the very freedom of learning Armenian language and standing by the side of a united Armenia. In fact, anyone can become Armenian if they want to (even your pet dog for that matter, btw. my dog understands Armenian very well, is she Armenian? I don’t know let see… she woreships me, I am Armenian, yea OK she is Armenian, why not?). But they have to become Armenian by deeds and not just by absurd names.

14. Sako says:

    November 23, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Tamar, in Montreal, I went to Sourp Hagop. we learned that St Gregory was the son of King Drtad’s assassin. Alot of people know what u wrote. It’s well written and I enjoyed it but u make it seem like its top secret information.

15. Vahe says:

    November 23, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    My parents are Christian and I am not. If someone tries to tell me that I am not Armenian or in any way lesser one because of me not being religious – they are out of their minds.  You can’t take away my or any other person’s nationality or bestow it on someone not born Armenian by grading some personal characteristics. I don’t think that there are good or bad Armenians, just like there are no good or bad French or Chinese. There are good or bad people, depending on where you live and whose scales are you using.

16. Armen says:

    November 23, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Let’s all go to Garni and worship Aramazd like they used to!  I wonder if there are any Pagan Armenians left…?

17. Haro says:

    November 23, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    OK, good example from Vahe’s comment. Vahe’s parents are Christians, but he thinks he is not. But his parents are Armenians and he thinks he is too. Vahe, are you Muslim? God forbit he is not. So how do you know that you are not Christian. He says, he is not religious. You see, what Tamar has started, an endless energy exhaustion system to confuse all Armenians that still believe very firmly that they are true Armenians. Vahe, I know what you are feeling, I for one being a scientist am not a religious person too. But who said that Armenian Christianity (not any other) is a religion. It becomes a religion, when you take whatever Mashtoz did out and away from the doctrine (e.g. write the bible in Turkish in Roman characters, and leave no Armenian trace in it, then destroy all historic document pertaining to Armenianness).
    Only then Armenian Christianity becomes a “religion”.
    Vahe has also pointed out yet another foregone confusion that arises from this Turkish propaganda machine. Namely, being a good or bad Armenian. See, this is what the enemy wants to put us into. Degrade our Armenian Identity by questioning it with some absurd terms, such as “Muslim Armenian” terminology.
    Vahe, you are 100% right.

18. daron says:

    November 23, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    To Armen,
    No brother, no more Pagan Armenians left, thanks to Krikor Lousavorich and Haro…  By the way Haro, were Jesus and Noah Armenian too, I’m just wondering.

19. Dino Ajemian says:

    November 23, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    To Narine:
    Don’t worry. The barbarians already know exactly where every crypto Armenian, Armenian, Alevi Zaza and every other non sunni and non turk is, what they do and where they go, in turkey and in the diaspora. In fact they know what prominent Armenians in the diaspora had for lunch and whether or not they are cheating on their wifes or husbands. They read our emails and know our internet surfing habits.   They know what every Armenian organization is planning. There is nothing the turkish intelligence services dont know.

    On a happier note, I am an Armenian pagan believer but have respect and love for the Jew called Jesus. He is my favorite Jew. 30% of Armenia is pagan. I pray to Vahakn for Armenian victories and a cool breeze on a hot summer day and I thank Goddess Anahit whenever I am in an Armenian womans embrace. There are Armenians who give information to the barbarians on a day to day basis and there are odars who speak Armenian, are members of and worship at Armenian Apostalic churches and have fought in Artsakh. Which one is Armenian?

20. papken hartunian says:

    November 23, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    There are Pagans living in Armenia. Tthey go in Garni and celebrate their own holidays. Are these Pagans Armenians? Depends!

21. Onnig Z says:

    November 23, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    How about Armenians of the Jewish faith?
    Why were they not included in your research?

22. armenian says:

    November 24, 2009 at 1:21 am

    very informative, i was surprised that asparez would publish such a daring article, it is almost the end of 2009, in this age of abundant scientific discoveries,  how much longer before people wake up from their religious hypnosis, my fellow armenians,  if u want to worship something, that is your right, but by all means do not define my ancestry based on a religious affiliation, while i am grateful for the (orthodox, excuse me “apostolic” church not to offend religious guardians) for preserving the Armenian culture, it also subsequently alienated those who did not believe in christianity and therefore severed their tie with armenianness…lost treasure for border-less armenia, and much gain for the the other nations  which absorbed our pride and joy, it is my dream that all the daughters and sons of hayk and armenak, whether they are aware of their identity or not, atheist, or religious  will experience a fervent ethnic renaissance  and shift their focus on the motherland ARME’NIA,
    after all when the dust settles, and the he said she said subsides, all that matters is the strength of our nation, when bickering amongst yourself remember always, that a family cannot stay together and continue to coexist, unless they live in a safe  house built on strong foundations, and all of us should never forget that, outside armenia whatever its boundary de jure might be, we  armenians are nothing but  a temporary guest, and if you don’t believe me all you have to do is revisit history, and you will see, that after 600 years of fairly good and prosperous life under the turks we were subjected to a campaign of extermination…and please don’t rush to incite religious animosity, based on reliable  historical accounts,  christians have not faired much different toward other fellow christians that were subjugated,
    i dream of a modern armenia, far ahead of its time, the new world center of creativity, the birth place of the true human rights, unlike the pseudo propagandist versions that  drowned the western societies, i dream of an armenia where every citizen is treated fairly and equally before the law regardless of their background  and preferences,  a model country, a golden society inspiring the rest of the world

23. Garo says:

    November 24, 2009 at 7:05 am

    Tamar- great article. The topic of “Muslim” Armenians is becoming only more relevant as the Republic of Turkey continues to democratize.
    Haro- How narrow of a definition should we make “Armenianess”? For example, Saint Movses Khorenatsi was a Chalcedonian Christian. In your opinion, should the Armenian Apostolic Church (non-Chalcedonian) remove his sainthood? For those who are staunch Christian nationalists, your Orthodoxy must surely compel you to “love thy neighbor” regardless of their religious or atheist beliefs?
    And to those whose paranoia has got the better of them, Turkification and Islamification are, in fact, two completely separate processes. Let us not forget that a large number of truly God-fearing Muslims risked their lives and provided us shelter and safe passage without forced assimilation during the Genocide in modern day Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Lebanon.
    Tamar and Patricia are absolutely correct. The world has become a completely different place within the last one hundred years and we must expand on the notion of what is to be Armenian. I wholeheartedly believe this as a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
    Pluralism and tolerance is essential for both the Republic and the Diaspora. Armenia’s faltering democracy is in dangerously short supply of them both. The Diaspora’s sometimes myopic view of each other creates unnecessary prejudice which ultimately undermines our universal goal- preservation of the homeland. With the aforementioned tenets, we can grow in number and organization, two essential factors in expanding geopolitical influence within Asia Minor, Anatolia, and the Caucasus. A paradigm of neo-Armenianism throughout the entire historic homeland must be adopted irrespective of one’s religious, political, or dialectic differences.
    Let us celebrate our ancient and common heritage rather than estrange those groups categorically victimized by oppression.

24. christian manougian says:

    November 24, 2009 at 8:36 am

    WHAT I THINK:WHO EVER WORKS FOR STREGTHENING AND POWERING A NAME CALLED ARMENIA IS AN ARMENIAN AND WORKS FOR AN AGENT CALLED ARMENIA ,EVERYONE OF US  WORKS HARD TO KEEP HIS HOUSE CLEAN IN ALL MEANS AND TO LET ARMENIA GROW ,HE IS AN ARMENIAN .
    WHO EXCEPTS CHRISTIANITY IS COMPLEATING HIS ARMENIAN IDENTITY ,WITHOUT RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY YOU CANT BE FOCUSING AT ARMENIA ,CAUSE YOU WILL FOLLOW THE OTHERS U BELONG TO AND U STREGTHEN THEM .
    ARMENIA IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY ,BUT IT DOSNT MEAN TO IGNOR ITS MINORITIES  AND NON CHRISTIANS .
    TODAY IS NOT THE PAST IT STARTED WITH KING DERTAT AND WILL CONTINUE .
    LIKE A MOTHER GIVING HER CHILD A NAME AND A RELIGION AND U WILL BE THANKFULL TO HER IS LIKE ARMENIA GIVING U A NAME AND A RELGION THAT WE HAVE TO BE THANKFULL.SO BE PROUD.

25. Mikael says:

    November 24, 2009 at 9:14 am

    I was also taught that Gregory was the son of Anak who killed Drtad’s father. That isn’t some secret hidden away. It was part of the normal curriculum at school and in Church. Armenian Identity does not equal Christianity. I agree with Haro on every point. I should also mention there is a sizable Jewish community in Armenia as well. They were born in Armenia, speak Armenian and practice the culture. The only difference is that they happen to not be Christian. Are they not Armenian as well? No offense, but my thoughts of this article are that some hasty generalizations were made according to poor research.

26. Haro says:

    November 24, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    My sisters and brothers, all of us that have commented here know what Armenian Identity is. We don’t need a debate by some writer to tell us what Armenian is. My point in these commentary was to point that the term “Muslim Armenian” was invented by the Turkish revisionist historians, and is a provocative propaganda machinery. There are no such Armenians. Of course, there are Armenians that converted to Islam either by force in order to save their lives. But we Armenians do not call them “Muslin Armenian”s. We have a traditional term for it depending on how they converted into Islam. If they converted to Islam by their own will, then they Turkified if they lived in current day Turkey. If they converted to Islam because they were kidnapped by a Kurd or Arab, then they are called “Dajkgazouaz”s. Then there are some Armenian children that were bought or saved during the Genocide by benevolent Arabs and Kurds, those Armenians kept their faith and remained “Armenian Christian”. My grandfather was a survivor of this third kind. He was raised among Kurds, and he remained Armenian and Christian (I mean “Armenian Christian”).
    Finally, as a scientist, I may be identified as an atheist. But I have no conflict with “Armenian Christianity”, because I have studied all the details of the Armenian old manuscripts and found that “Armenian Christianity” is beyond the term “religion”. It’s the same thing as talking about the background music of a movie and the whole movie along with the music. Armenian Christianity is not just religion. It has more than 3500 years of roots in Armenian Highland. For example, you cannot take “Avarayr” battle out of the Armenian Christianity and expect to have the same effect. Again, please note that I am equating Armenian with “Armenian Christianity” and not just any other Christianity. Armenian Christianity has its root in the pagan Mihr (as in Poker Mher, or Mheri Door) believes, and even to this day, there are symbolic references to Mihr in the old manuscripts. Under every old church in Armenia, there is a pagan foundation. Moreover, the Khoran, Khoung, Muron, Zes, almost everything that does not refer to Jesus is entirely pagan. In short, the whole foundation is pagan. There are many references of Mihr in the Grecko-Roman Christianity as well, for example the symbol of triumph over the bull (Spanish Toro), the Holy Trinity, etc.
    One of the commenters was asking whether Jesus was Armenian. No, he was not, but he was a follower of Mihr believe, which originated from Armenia. The Mihr believe was introduced to Egypt mostly during the Tigran the Great’s time. As for Noah, this part of the mythology is not very  clear, but, why the Bible has references to Ararat? Some historians believe that this story may have passed to the Jews via the Armenians, again during the time of Tigran the Great.

    Finally, Armenian Identity should imply all these, not just whether the person believes in an abstract and unseen Allah or God (who was more or less created by “human”s).
    Also, the “Muslim Armenian” term does not bring much honor to those 1.5 million Armenians victims of the Genocide, who remained Armenian Christian and were massacred by the Turks. So please, don’t talk to me about religious tolerance BS.

    Tamar jan, please don’t raise your children as “Muslim Armenian”. You can raise them as atheist, if you really hate the Armenian Christianity, or Saint Mesrob and Vartan, so much.

27. Haro says:

    November 24, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    One final note from me, watch this YouTube clip and think about what “Muslim Armenian” propaganda terminology is going to lead us into:

    Thanks all, I am out of this article debate. The rest of my efforts will be included in my next documentary movie “Ագռաւի Դուրը” (Agravi Doore, in English ”The Craw’s Entrance”).

28. most pessimist optimist says:

    November 24, 2009 at 9:58 pm

    KEEP YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS TO YOURSELVES IN YOUR OWN HOMES, FOR IT IS A PRIVATE MATTER AND HAS NO PLACE IN CIVIC ARENAS…
    GET WITH IT, IT’S THE 21ST CENTURY
    
    ALL THOSE SCREAMING IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY, DO YOU NOT REALIZE THAT BOTH CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM ARE A DISGUISED AND MANIPULATED VERSIONS OF THE SAME RELIGION…JUDEISM????????
    EITHER WAY GOOD FOR NOTHING BUT DIVISIONS AND WEAKNESSES

    very informative, i was surprised that asparez would publish such a daring article, it is almost the end of 2009, in this age of abundant scientific discoveries,  how much longer before people wake up from their religious hypnosis, my fellow armenians,  if you want to worship something, that is your right, but by all means do not define my ancestry based on a religious affiliation, while i am grateful for the (orthodox, excuse me “apostolic” church not to offend religious guardians) for preserving the Armenian culture, it also subsequently alienated those who did not believe in christianity who either willingly or forcefully severed their tie with armenianness…lost treasure for border-less armenia, and much gain for the the other nations  which absorbed our pride and joy, it is my dream that all the daughters and sons of hayk, armenak, through blood line or foreign marriages, whether they are aware of their identity or not, agnostic, atheist, or religious  will experience a fervent ethnic renaissance  and shift their focus on the motherland… ARME’NIA,
    after all, when the dust settles, and the he said she said subsides, all that matters is the strength of our nation, when bickering amongst yourself remember always, that a family cannot stay together and continue to coexist, unless they live in a safe  house built on strong foundations, whatever its boundary de jure might be, and all of us should never forget that, outside armenias protective wings,  we  armenians are nothing but  temporary guests, and if you don’t believe me all you have to do is revisit history, and you will see, that after 600 years of fairly good and prosperous life under the turks we were subjected to a campaign of extermination…and please don’t rush to incite religious animosity, based on reliable  historical accounts,  christians have not faired much better toward other fellow christians they subjugated, who can forget the endless barrage of religious persecutions endured under the byzantine roman christian rule, or better yet, how our compatriots are being treated in christian georgia at the present day???
    I dream of a new armenia, like a phoenix rising from the ashes, far ahead of its time, the new world center of creativity, the birth place of  true human rights, social, economic and personal freedoms, unlike the pseudo propagandist versions that  drowned the western societies with illusions, i dream of an armenia where corruption is reviled, justice is blind, and poverty is extinct,  a model country, a golden society inspiring the rest of the world.

29. Baron’s Life says:

    November 25, 2009 at 8:40 am

    Great article Tamar and also great responses….who’s Armenian?

    I , hereby,  declare THE WHOLE WORLD  is ARMENIAN…

    They just don’t know it yet….!

30. daron says:

    November 25, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Haro,
    Again thanks for the  information that you posted, although I disagree with it.  To start with, Mihr that you are referring to is an old Persian religion “Mithraism” that was adopted later by Roman military class and by Armenian Royal Class.  King Dertad was initiated into Mithraism but nowhere in my research I found indications that claim Mithraism as Armenian religion.   A good reference for Mithraic rites and mysteries is “The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries” by David Ulansey, you can also refer to books written by Joseph Campbell.  Regarding to the atrocities that were committed by the Apostolic Armenian Church towards fellow Armenians you can refer to ” The Tondrakian Movement ” by Vrej Nersessian.
    On the other hand, branding Armenians that do not practice Christianity as non Armenians is a fallacy.  I have met  Buddhist, Hindu and Islam Armenians who feel strongly towards their national identity, and I’m sure by not regarding them as Armenians will be an insult to their Armenian pride.
    Nevertheless, I respect your perspectives and wish you good luck on your future work.