{"id":16201,"date":"2009-11-27T15:02:05","date_gmt":"2009-11-27T13:02:05","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.turkishforum.com.tr\/en\/content\/?p=16201"},"modified":"2014-01-05T17:51:30","modified_gmt":"2014-01-05T15:51:30","slug":"who-is-an-armenian","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.turkishnews.com\/en\/content\/2009\/11\/27\/who-is-an-armenian\/","title":{"rendered":"WHO IS AN ARMENIAN?"},"content":{"rendered":"

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Tamar Kevonian, <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Asbarez.com – 20\/11\/2009 – <\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWhat if an Armenian was Muslim or Bahai, or Hindu?\u201d the question is asked one day during a conversation about ethnic identity and why it was tied into religious identity.
\nThere are those, mostly scholars in Armenia, who vehemently deny the Armenian ethnic identity to anyone who is not of the Christian faith, particularly of the Orthodox persuasion. They claim that being Armenian automatically assumes and implies Christianity.
\nThis logic would be acceptable except for the fact that Armenians, as an ethnic group, existed long before Christianity or their conversion to it in a bloody and violent manner. The switch to the religion that now identifies us was not a peaceful one and St. Gregory the Illuminator himself waged the war.
\nArmenia, two millennia ago, had a varied population. Strategically located at the crossroads of the region, many cultures passed through the area while some chose to make it their permanent home. As a result, the Armenia of that day was culturally diverse, religiously tolerant and very cosmopolitan.
\nLegend has it that upon King Drtad\u2019s miraculous cure at the hands of St. Gregory the Illuminator, he immediately converted to the magical new religion and proclaimed Armenia to now be a Christian state. Everyone was to set aside their previous religious beliefs which they\u2019d held for hundreds of years in favour of a new one and live happily ever after in the afterglow of their new found religion. But the story doesn\u2019t end there. Or even begin there.
\nKing Drtad was the infant son of Khosrov II when he was assassinated by Anak, an Armenian operating as an agent for the Persian Empire. St. Gregory was the son of Anak who, as an adult, returned to Armenia and worked for King Drtad without informing him of his true identity.
\nThe legend taught to Armenian children today does not include this fact. Completely ignoring it, it skips directly to St. Gregory\u2019s time spent in the dungeon for being a Christian. In reality, his incarceration came about because of the king\u2019s discovery of the assistant\u2019s true heritage. Which king wouldn\u2019t imprison the son of his father\u2019s assassin?
\nThe story goes on to say that after Drtad is cured of his illness at the hands of Gregory, he becomes a believer of Christianity. As a young king, Drtad fought hard to liberate Armenia and create a quasi independent state. His country\u2019s conversion to the upstart religion was the final break from his Roman and Persian neighbours at a time when religion affiliation was a key tool that set a nation apart.
\nThe process of becoming peace-loving Christians was anything but peaceful or loving. The legend of Drtad omits the key part of the story by ignoring the \u2018how\u2019 of the conversion. Although begun peacefully, it soon turned violent when nobles, priests and their followers of the prevailing faiths resisted the efforts of the state. The forced conversion of hundreds of thousands of people had other purposes besides spreading the word of God. Under the guise of religion, Kind Drtad was able to purge his land of political opposition and enemy agents and confiscate the wealth of the existing temples. Everyone was either forced to convert or lose their heads. His right-hand man in this war was none other than St. Gregory, the founder of the Armenian Orthodox Church. His greatest supporter and passionate advocate of the effort was Ashkhen, Drtad\u2019s wife who was not Armenian.
\nIn one brief decade, Armenia went from a culturally diverse nation without an official national language to one that espoused uniformity and conformity where the use of Armenian became a requirement and strictly enforced. Survival is a basic human instinct and many did convert rather than lose their heads. Some of the descendants of those who chose to convert almost two millennia ago were, in the early part of the 20th century, forced to make yet another difficult choice: convert or die, but this time to Islam.
\nWhy is identity tied to faith? What about Armenians that are Orthodox but don\u2019t speak a word of the language or know any of the history? What of the Armenian of mixed heritage with the overwhelming love and enthusiasm for the Armenian culture who practices another religion? Do they qualify?
\nAt a recent photo exhibit, Harry, a well known photographer, gave a contextual explanation of one of his photos that looked like nothing more than Muslim village women escaping a flood while holding their children to their breast. The real story is that they were Kurdish women, who after the death of their children and the hardships they endured, were allowed by Turkey to emigrate to Germany. \u201cBut the best part,\u201d said Harry, \u201cis that when going through customs and registering their names in their new home country, each one of them gave an Armenian name.\u201d They reclaimed their original identity. \u201cNow, they even have a nice little community with a church.\u201d
\nToday, in the remote corners of what was once a part of greater Armenia and is now Turkey, there exists a substantial group of Armenians who have almost all converted to Islam. Although they maintain their Armenian identity and their distinctive Armenian dialect, they do not practice the espoused religion of Christianity. Do we consider them to be Armenian?
\nIt is estimated that there are several million \u201chidden\u201d Armenians in Turkey and the surrounding areas. A little-thought of side effect of the Armenian-Turkish protocols and the resulting improved relations between the two countries may be just the encouragement and motivation these Armenians need to stand up and reclaim their roots and fortify our numbers. Can we deny them their Armenian identity? Can we afford not to?<\/span><\/p>\n

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30 Responses for \u201cWho is an Armenian?\u201d<\/span><\/h3>\n
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    \"daron\" daron<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 21, 2009 at 12:36 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    Well writen Tamar.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  2. \n
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    \"Armen\" Armen<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 21, 2009 at 12:38 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    It should be stressed that Armenians are NOT part of the Orthodox denomination. Those are the Greeks, Georgians, Russians, Serbs and other peoples in the Balkans. The overwhelming number of Armenians are part of the Apostolic denomination.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

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    \"Aya\" Aya<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 21, 2009 at 12:46 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    Armenian is an Armenian, thats the most important thing. Muslim or Christian, we are brothers and sisters.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  4. \n
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    Guest<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 21, 2009 at 4:03 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    #1.\u00a0 You are describing ancient Armenia with modern ideas of religious tolerance, ethnicity, etc. in ways that were most likely not really applicable to ancient peoples.
    \n#2. I went to an Armenian school and I can most definitely tell you the part about Gregory being the son of an assassin is taught. The part about the forcible conversion is also taught, and even how Etchmiadzin happens to be built upon one of the most important pagan shrines in Armenia.<\/p>\n

    #3. I do not purposefully mean to be rude, but for someone making such big statements about Armenian history, you should know that Gregory was not the founder of our church. There is a reason why it is called the Armenian Apostolic Church and not the Armenian Illuminated Church.<\/p>\n

    #4. Identity is tied to faith because faith forms such a big part of identity. This is especially true for Armenians. I\u2019m sure you know the relevant history\/mythology.<\/p>\n

    #5. You don\u2019t have to Armenian Orthodox to be\u00a0 Armenian, but if you are not you have to sort of make up for it by emphasizing some other aspect of Armenianness because like I said, the Armenian Orthodox Church has been so essential to Armenian identity in the past 1700 years that by turning away from it, you necessarily are cutting yourself off from a huge aspect of our identity. This isn\u2019t a particularly big gap if you are Catholic Armenian Rite or Armenian Evangelical, but if you are Muslim it is. However, I would say changing your name and the name of everyone in your village most definitely qualifies.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  5. \n
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    \"papken papken hartunian<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 21, 2009 at 10:18 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    In my opinion, there are three classes of Armenians. First class is, I call them, Armenians Armenians who are born as Armenians and lived as Armenians and served for Armenia and Armenians during their lives.<\/p>\n

    Second class, I call them born again Armenians, are Armenians who are born as Armenians, however they are grown up as none Armenians.\u00a0 Some of these Armenians later on chose to be identified as Armenians and continue serve Armenia and other Armenians during rest of their lives.<\/p>\n

    Finally, there are people who have nothing to do with being an Armenian at all.\u00a0 However, these people love Armenia and serve Armenians. I call them \u201cnew Armenians.\u201d<\/p>\n

    In short, all people are born by default, they do not have anything to do with the place of their birth and have nothing to do in selection of their parents.\u00a0 Therefore, the question \u201cWhere are you from? has only one meaningful answer- I am from my mother.\u00a0 What matters is that to whom we have pledged our allegiance.<\/p>\n

    Suppose, US and Armenia are in the state of war against each other. And you claim that you are an Armenian and you are citizen of United States or any other state for that matter.\u00a0 Suppose further that, you must joint the conflict and you have given a choice to fight against either side. Which side you are going to fight? The answer to this question is the same answer of the question \u201cWho is an Armenian?\u201d<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  6. \n
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    \"AM\" AM<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 21, 2009 at 9:10 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    \u201cIt is estimated that there are several million \u201chidden\u201d Armenians in Turkey and the surrounding areas.\u201d
    \nEstimated by who, how, where?\u00a0 Before this statement is answered, that sentence shouldn\u2019t have been published.\u00a0 It is wishful thinking.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  7. \n
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    \"Narine\" Narine<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 22, 2009 at 4:01 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    Have you ever think of the risk that can come from the\u00a0\u201chidden\u201d Armenians you mentioned?
    \nAyd hayere arden vaxuc hay chen garox ellal ete nkatenq, vor kan AZG -i bnoroshichner: lezu, mshakuyt` kron\u2026(nshvacnere amenaglxavornern en) I dep, mi morceq vor darerov petakanutyun chunecac azgin hamaxbel yev glxavorel e henc krone` Hayoc Araqelakan ekexecin. Isk mahmedakanutyune da miayn kron che` ayl apreladzev, manavand Turkiayum, vortex bolore hamarvum en TURK\u2026
    \nMyus harcin andradardzov asem, vor turkere ogtvelov mahmedakan hayer erevuytic, shat arag Hayastan klcnen hazaravor iskakan turqeri` verjnakan npatakin` hayeri verjnakan vochnchacume irakanacnelu hamar.
    \nI think we all need to be very careful regarding this issue\u2026
    \nThink twice\u2026<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  8. \n
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    Haroutune Keoroghlanyan<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 4:11 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    A hard\u00a0 question to ponder\u2026 the long and short of it is that our so called ten million figure would have to be multiplied at least four, maybe five times\u2026Christianity has proved to be a terribly expensive indulgence for us. I wander how seriously Armenia would be treated with a population of FIFTY MILLION and working ports on the Black sea, the Mediterranean and the Caspian\u2026 at the turn of the last century Baku was an Armenian-owned city \u2026 is it possible that Azerbaijan would today be a pan-Turkist dream?
    \nSeriously though, who in his right mind would dare stop more than 200,000 Hamshenis from joining the fold\u2026 the only conclusion that makes sense is to embrace everybody who claims to be Armenian, Armenian.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  9. \n
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    \"Patricia Patricia Constantinian<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 5:51 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    And what of Armenians who choose to practice no religion; those who, for whatever reason, find themselves unable to accept myths of virgin births, miracles, heaven and hell, Armenians who aren\u2019t threatened by the idea that the Christianization of Armenia had strong political and strategic motivations? \u00a0It\u2019s not so much that Armenians who do not participate in Orthodox Christianity do not qualify for Armenian identity. \u00a0It\u2019s more likely that they cannot find a place in Armenian community life and still be open about their divergent faith or non-belief. \u00a0The fact that an Armenian identity is defined in such narrow, exclusionary terms will, in my opinion, ultimately bring about the dissolution, dilution, and demise of our ethnic and cultural identity. \u00a0It might just be that worked in the 4th and 5th Centuries has exhausted its purpose over the course of 1600 years or so.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

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    Babken DerGrigorian<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 11:10 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    wow.. what a great piece. thanks Tamar!<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  11. \n
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    \"Roger\" Roger<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 11:38 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    Great, thought-provoking article about how History,\u00a0 ignored, may repeat itself. Kevonian points out a cycle that is tied in to the peculiar nature of Armenia\u2019s religion and how it is tied in to nationality.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  12. \n
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    \"Jirair\" Jirair<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 12:28 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    Drtad\u2019s conversion to Christianity was purely a political act. Perhaps it is important to live in France (as I am) and observe the French concern of the spread of English language as a universal language to understand the motivation of Drtad.\u00a0 Tamar Kevonian\u2019s article does not give enough weight to the fact that the introduction of Christianity was the means to distinguish the Armenian nation from that of the Persians. A hundred years later the invention of the Armenian alphabet was also a political act. This time, the objective was to distinguish the Armenian nation from the Greeks and the Romans, who by then had converted to Christianity and their influence was a danger to the Armenian national identity. Even though I agree with Kevonian\u2019s point that today, being christian and speaking Armenian is not a prerequisite for being Armenian, but I do not agree with her argumentation to demonstrate her point. In fact any individual who feels Armenian is Armenians. The saying goes: You are what you feel you are.
    \nIn the 4th and 5th century, the Armenian leaders were pursuing a \u201cnation building\u201d strategy which was appropriate at that time. Today the strategy is not only \u201cbuilding\u201d but also \u201cuniting the nation with all its components\u201d since the context different. Hence my agreement with the article.
    \nBut worth noting here an other point. For centuries, Armenians have pursued an \u201cisolationist\u201d strategy and build barriers. Otherwise how can we explain, for example \u2026 \u201cwhy didn\u2019t the Armenians try to convert the Persians to Christianity, when they had over 400 years before the arrival of the Arabs who converted the Persians to Islam?\u201d.\u00a0 (Those who had the opportunity to study the history of the spread of Islam, know that the Arabs, in the 7th century did not attempt to convert Jews nor Christians to Islam. The only condition for those,\u00a0 was to pay their taxes. While pagans, i.e. Persians had no choice: convert to Islam or loose your head). To my knowledge there is no trace in our history where we have used \u201cmissionaries\u201d or any other means to convert the Persians to Christianity, while the spread of Christianity was based on missionary activities. Why didn\u2019t we ? The military and economic power of Persia cannot explain our lack of interest to convert them to Christianity. We just did not want to. We kept to our \u201cisolationist\u201d strategy.
    \nOne must also agree, that the \u201cisolationist\u201d strategy worked well and kept our nation, although small, but going and helped it survive.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  13. \n
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    \"Haro\" Haro<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 2:04 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    Please Tamar, before writing such articles do some research (no offense by my argument, please take my criticism very objectively). And by research, I mean some recently discovered Armenian historians and archeological research. This is a very provoking subject and should not be addressed so hastily, especially when you have related it to the Khaytarag Protocols.
    \n\u201cWho is Armenian\u201d subject surfaced just recently, approximately 5 years ago, when Turkey announced that they have a sizable population of Hamshenies. And then this issue exploded as Muslin Armenians that still live in Turkey. Everyone by now knows that this is yet another propaganda method to confuse the Armenians all over the world (that are still Armenians) by destroying the only root that may have remained in them, namely the Armenian Identity. It is ironic, that you have fallen into this trap and have written such article precisely like a Turkish revisionist historian.
    \nFirst of all, Armenian does not equate to \u201creligion\u201d. By \u201creligion\u201d, you should not assume anything concrete. Because, this term means a million things and is interpreted in a million ways. It\u2019s the same thing as trying to define the word \u201cGod\u201d. There are more than 3 billion inhabitants on this planet, and I assure you that the word \u201cGod\u201d has more than 3 billion interpretation. Therefore, to put Armenian Identity (a term that has a concrete meaning) question at the level of \u00a0the term \u201cReligion\u201d is the mother of all propagandas. And Turks know how to create such things.
    \nTherefore, instead of associating the Armenian Identity with the term \u201creligion\u201d, we should associate with written and developed doctrines. Such as Orthodoxy, Armenian Apostolic Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam or more accurately the Ottoman Islamism. You see, even Islamism cannot be discussed without referencing the nationalism of the Muslim. Yes, there is a difference between Arab Islam, Persian Islam or Turkish Islam (besides their shiite or suni sects).
    \nWhen you outline these background information, it becomes very clear that in the region of Greater Armenia land, the only Islam that existed until today is the Turkish Islam. And therefore there are no such fallacies as Muslin Armenians. Because, if there were, then 80 percent of the current Turkish population would automatically become Armenians. This of course is the whole point of the Turkish government\u2019s destructive diplomacy (i.e. confuse the Armenian Identity to confuse the Armenians by making them fight each other on a stupid question of Armenian Identity).
    \nThe question of Armenian Identity is very clear and there are very nicely written books about it (e.g. Armen Ayvasyan, Shiraz, Charenz, Tekeyan and many other Armenian writers, both inside and outside the current Armenia). It is ironic that all of these Armenian writers will never use the term \u201cMuslin Armenians\u201d, because there is a historically well understood term for such, and it is called \u201cDajgazanel\u201d, \u201cTurkaszvel\u201d, \u201cTurkanal\u201d and \u2018Ouranal\u201d. When an Armenian was converted to Islam, she\/he was converted into Turkishness before becoming Islam.
    \nHaving said these, let me do some correction in the Christian history that Tamar has stumbled into. First of all, Gregory was not that much Christian (meaning Jesus follower). He and Drtad had no option but to accept Christianity, because almost all nobleman and a sizable of Vagharshabat and Araratian population were already Christians. They realized that by making Christianity state doctrine they will unify Armenia against future Persian doctrines. Secondly, there is a difference between Christianity and the doctrine of followers of Jesus. The term Kristos was only introduced much later during Mesrop Mashtoz, and is the name of the Grecko-Roman general Khristo who fought and won a war against the other legion of Rome (and in the name of Jesus and the Cross).
    \nRecent archeological discoveries are pointing to the case that Christianity (as doctrine) started originally from Armenia long before it was introduced in Middle East (namely the Mihr version of the belief). Moreover, Jesus was one of the followers of this doctrine. So the only thing that was revolutionized in Armenia was that indeed Jesus was the Son of the God that was depicted by this old Armenian Pagan belief to return to Earth (verification of this info needs a book to be outlined).
    \nHave anyone really asked why the Armenians were the first nation to Christianize. Well, because their old Pagan belief was the origin of the Christianity. As for the destruction of temples and inner civil uprising between Grigoris and pagans in Armenia. We have some information from Agatangeghos, and let us not ignore it. There is a mention of a high priest called Artzan who in our recent interpretation would be the true native Armenian\u00a0or the follower of\u00a0the Old \u201cChristian\u201d doctrine. Both, king Drtad (who was raised and educated in Rome) and Grigoris were more or less foreigners, while Artzan was a native Armenian, raised in Armenia. Drtad and Grigoris hated the Armenian old ways and culture, because they had either Roman or Assyrian background. Therefore the destruction of temples had nothing to do with the name of Jesus, and in fact absolutely contradictory to old Armenian \u201cChristian\u201d doctrine. They were destroyed because both Drtad and Grigoris hated them (because they also had personal grudge and hated the competing other authority, namely, Artzan the high priest).
    \nHaving said all these, I give the reader the judgement of what Armenian Identity is if it is not in fact very much related to the old Armenian \u201cChristian\u201d doctrine, which is not very much different from today\u2019s Apostolic doctrine of today (i.e. Armenian = Christian(the First Christian doctrine which includes everything about Armenianness). And please, no more such absurd calls of \u201cOh, then you are denying the right of some poor Pilipino Muslin Armenian to be Armenian\u201d. Oh, please\u2026 I am not denying anything, they have the very freedom of converting back to Armenian Apostolic Church, and the very freedom of learning Armenian language and standing by the side of a united Armenia. In fact, anyone can become Armenian if they want to (even your pet dog for that matter, btw. my dog understands Armenian very well, is she Armenian? I don\u2019t know let see\u2026 she woreships me, I am Armenian, yea OK she is Armenian, why not?). But they have to become Armenian by deeds and not just by absurd names.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  14. \n
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    \"Sako\" Sako<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 3:44 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    Tamar, in Montreal, I went to\u00a0Sourp Hagop. we learned that St Gregory was the son of King Drtad\u2019s assassin. Alot of people know what u wrote. It\u2019s well written and I enjoyed it but u make it seem like its top secret information.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  15. \n
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    \"Vahe\" Vahe<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 4:42 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    My parents are Christian and I am not. If someone tries to tell me that I am not Armenian or in any way lesser one because of me not being religious \u2013 they are out of their minds.\u00a0 You can\u2019t take away my or any other person\u2019s nationality or bestow it on someone not born Armenian by grading some personal characteristics. I don\u2019t think that there are good or bad Armenians, just like there are no good or bad French or Chinese. There are good or bad people, depending on where you live and whose scales are you using.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  16. \n
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    Armen<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 4:50 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    Let\u2019s all go to Garni and worship Aramazd like they used to!\u00a0 I wonder if there are any Pagan Armenians left\u2026?<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  17. \n
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    \"Haro\" Haro<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 5:43 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    OK, good example from Vahe\u2019s comment. Vahe\u2019s parents are Christians, but he thinks he is not. But his parents are Armenians and he thinks he is too. Vahe, are you Muslim? God forbit he is not. So how do you know that you are not Christian. He says, he is not religious. You see, what Tamar has started, an endless energy exhaustion system to confuse all Armenians that still believe very firmly that they are true Armenians. Vahe, I know what you are feeling, I for one being a scientist am not a religious person too. But who said that Armenian Christianity (not any other) is a religion. It becomes a religion, when you take whatever Mashtoz did out and away from the doctrine (e.g. write the bible in Turkish in Roman characters, and leave no Armenian trace in it, then destroy all historic document pertaining to Armenianness).
    \nOnly then Armenian Christianity becomes a \u201creligion\u201d.
    \nVahe has also pointed out yet another foregone confusion that arises from this Turkish propaganda machine. Namely, being a good or bad Armenian. See, this is what the enemy wants to put us into. Degrade our Armenian Identity by questioning it with some absurd terms, such as \u201cMuslim Armenian\u201d terminology.
    \nVahe, you are 100% right.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  18. \n
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    \"daron\" daron<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 7:13 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    To Armen,
    \nNo brother, no more Pagan Armenians left, thanks to Krikor Lousavorich and Haro\u2026 \u00a0By the way Haro, were Jesus and Noah Armenian too, I\u2019m just wondering.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  19. \n
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    \"Dino Dino Ajemian<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 7:45 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    To Narine:
    \nDon\u2019t worry. The barbarians already know exactly where every crypto Armenian, Armenian, Alevi Zaza and every other non sunni and non turk is, what they do and where they go, in turkey and in the diaspora. In fact they know what prominent Armenians in the diaspora had for lunch and whether or not they are cheating on their wifes or husbands. They read our emails and know\u00a0our internet surfing habits. \u00a0\u00a0They know what every Armenian organization is planning. There is nothing the turkish intelligence services dont know.<\/p>\n

    On a happier note, I am an Armenian pagan believer but have respect and love for the Jew called Jesus.\u00a0He is my favorite Jew. 30% of Armenia is pagan. I pray to Vahakn for Armenian victories and a cool breeze on a hot summer day and I thank Goddess Anahit whenever I am in an Armenian womans embrace. There are Armenians who give information to the barbarians on a day to day basis\u00a0and there are odars who speak Armenian, are members of and worship at Armenian Apostalic churches and have fought in Artsakh. Which one is Armenian?<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  20. \n
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    \"papken papken hartunian<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 7:51 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    There are Pagans living in Armenia. Tthey go in Garni and celebrate their own holidays. Are these Pagans Armenians? Depends!<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

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    Onnig Z<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 23, 2009 at 8:42 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    How about Armenians of the Jewish faith?
    \nWhy were they not included in your research?<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  22. \n
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    armenian<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 24, 2009 at 1:21 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    very informative, i was surprised that asparez would publish such a daring article, it is almost the end of 2009, in this age of abundant scientific discoveries, \u00a0how much longer before people wake up\u00a0from their religious hypnosis, my fellow armenians, \u00a0if u want to worship something, that is your right, but by all means do not define my ancestry<\/em> based on a religious affiliation, while i am grateful for the (orthodox, excuse me \u201capostolic\u201d church not to offend religious guardians) for preserving the Armenian culture, it also subsequently alienated those who did not believe in christianity and therefore severed their tie with armenianness\u2026lost treasure for border-less armenia, and\u00a0much gain for the the other nations\u00a0 which\u00a0absorbed our pride and joy, it is my dream that all the daughters and sons of hayk and armenak, whether they are aware of their identity or not, atheist, or religious \u00a0will experience a fervent ethnic renaissance\u00a0 and shift their focus on the motherland ARME\u2019NIA,
    \nafter all when the dust settles, and the he said she said subsides, all that matters is the strength of our nation, when bickering amongst yourself remember always, that a family cannot stay together and continue to coexist, unless they live in a safe \u00a0house\u00a0built on\u00a0strong foundations, and all of us should never forget that, outside armenia whatever its boundary de jure\u00a0might be, we\u00a0 armenians are nothing\u00a0but \u00a0a temporary guest, and if you don\u2019t believe me all you have to do is revisit history, and you will see, that after 600 years of fairly good and prosperous life under the turks we were subjected to\u00a0a campaign of extermination\u2026and please don\u2019t rush to incite religious animosity, based on reliable\u00a0 historical\u00a0accounts,\u00a0 christians have not faired much different\u00a0toward other\u00a0fellow christians that were subjugated,
    \ni dream of a modern armenia, far ahead of its time, the new world center of creativity, the birth place of the true human rights, unlike the pseudo propagandist versions that\u00a0 drowned the western societies, i dream of an armenia where every citizen is treated fairly and equally before the law regardless of their background\u00a0 and preferences,\u00a0 a model country, a golden society inspiring the rest of the world<\/strong><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  23. \n
    \n
    \"Garo\" Garo<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 24, 2009 at 7:05 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    Tamar- great article. The topic of \u201cMuslim\u201d Armenians is becoming only more relevant as the Republic of Turkey continues to democratize.
    \nHaro- How narrow of a definition should we make \u201cArmenianess\u201d? For example, Saint Movses Khorenatsi was a Chalcedonian Christian. In your opinion, should the Armenian Apostolic Church (non-Chalcedonian) remove his sainthood? For those who are staunch Christian nationalists, your Orthodoxy must surely compel you to \u201clove thy neighbor\u201d regardless of their religious or atheist beliefs?
    \nAnd to those whose paranoia has got the better of them, Turkification and Islamification are, in fact, two completely separate processes. Let us not forget that a large number of truly God-fearing Muslims risked their lives and provided us shelter and safe passage without forced assimilation during the Genocide in modern day Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Lebanon.
    \nTamar and Patricia are absolutely correct. The world has become a completely different place within the last one hundred years and we must expand on the notion of what is to be Armenian. I wholeheartedly believe this as a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
    \nPluralism and tolerance is essential for both the Republic and the Diaspora. Armenia\u2019s faltering democracy is in dangerously short supply of them both. The Diaspora\u2019s sometimes myopic view of each other creates unnecessary prejudice which ultimately undermines our universal goal- preservation of the homeland. With the aforementioned tenets, we can grow in number and organization, two essential factors in expanding geopolitical influence within Asia Minor, Anatolia, and the Caucasus. A paradigm of neo-Armenianism throughout the entire historic homeland must be adopted irrespective of one\u2019s religious, political, or dialectic differences.
    \nLet us celebrate our ancient and common heritage rather than estrange those groups categorically victimized by oppression.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  24. \n
    \n
    \"christian<\/span> christian manougian<\/span><\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 24, 2009 at 8:36 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    WHAT I THINK:WHO EVER WORKS FOR STREGTHENING AND POWERING A NAME CALLED ARMENIA IS AN ARMENIAN AND WORKS FOR AN\u00a0AGENT CALLED ARMENIA ,EVERYONE OF US\u00a0 WORKS HARD TO KEEP HIS HOUSE CLEAN IN ALL MEANS AND TO LET ARMENIA GROW ,HE IS AN ARMENIAN .
    \nWHO EXCEPTS CHRISTIANITY IS COMPLEATING HIS ARMENIAN IDENTITY ,WITHOUT RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY YOU CANT BE FOCUSING AT ARMENIA ,CAUSE YOU WILL FOLLOW THE OTHERS U BELONG\u00a0TO AND U STREGTHEN THEM .
    \nARMENIA IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY ,BUT IT DOSNT MEAN TO IGNOR ITS MINORITIES\u00a0 AND NON CHRISTIANS .
    \nTODAY IS NOT THE PAST IT STARTED WITH KING DERTAT AND WILL CONTINUE .
    \nLIKE A MOTHER GIVING HER CHILD A NAME AND A RELIGION AND U WILL BE THANKFULL TO HER IS LIKE ARMENIA GIVING U A NAME AND A RELGION THAT WE HAVE TO BE THANKFULL.SO BE PROUD.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  25. \n
    \n
    \"Mikael\" Mikael<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 24, 2009 at 9:14 am<\/span><\/div>\n

    I was also taught that Gregory was the son of Anak who killed Drtad\u2019s father. That isn\u2019t some secret hidden away. It was part of the normal curriculum at school and in Church. Armenian Identity does not equal Christianity. I agree with Haro on every point. I should also mention there is a sizable Jewish community in Armenia as well. They were born in Armenia, speak Armenian and practice the culture. The only difference is that they happen to not be Christian. Are they not Armenian as well? No offense, but my thoughts of this article are that some hasty generalizations were made according to poor research.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  26. \n
    \n
    \"Haro\" Haro<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 24, 2009 at 1:58 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    My sisters and brothers, all of us that have commented here know what Armenian Identity is. We don\u2019t need a debate by some writer to tell us what Armenian is. My point in these commentary was to point that the term \u201cMuslim Armenian\u201d was invented by the Turkish revisionist historians, and is a provocative propaganda machinery. There are no such Armenians. Of course, there are Armenians that converted to Islam either by force in order to save their lives. But we Armenians do not call them \u201cMuslin Armenian\u201ds. We have a traditional term for it depending on how they converted into Islam. If they converted to Islam by their own will, then they Turkified if they lived in current day Turkey. If they converted to Islam because they were kidnapped by a Kurd or Arab, then they are called \u201cDajkgazouaz\u201ds. Then there are some Armenian children that were bought or saved during the Genocide by benevolent Arabs and Kurds, those Armenians kept their faith and remained \u201cArmenian Christian\u201d. My grandfather was a survivor of this third kind. He was raised among Kurds, and he remained Armenian and Christian (I mean \u201cArmenian Christian\u201d).
    \nFinally, as a scientist, I may be identified as an atheist. But I have no conflict with \u201cArmenian Christianity\u201d, because I have studied all the details of the Armenian old manuscripts and found that \u201cArmenian Christianity\u201d is beyond the term \u201creligion\u201d. It\u2019s the same thing as talking about the background music of a movie and the whole movie along with the music. Armenian Christianity is not just religion. It has more than 3500 years of roots in Armenian Highland. For example, you cannot take \u201cAvarayr\u201d battle out of the Armenian Christianity and expect to have the same effect. Again, please note that I am equating Armenian with \u201cArmenian Christianity\u201d and not just any other Christianity. Armenian Christianity has its root in the pagan Mihr (as in Poker Mher, or Mheri Door) believes, and even to this day, there are symbolic references to Mihr in the old manuscripts. Under every old church in Armenia, there is a pagan foundation. Moreover, the Khoran, Khoung, Muron, Zes, almost everything that does not refer to Jesus is entirely pagan. In short, the whole foundation is pagan. There are many references of Mihr in the Grecko-Roman Christianity as well, for example the symbol of triumph over the bull (Spanish Toro), the Holy Trinity, etc.
    \nOne of the commenters was asking whether Jesus was Armenian. No, he was not, but he was a follower of Mihr believe, which originated from Armenia. The Mihr believe was introduced to Egypt mostly during the Tigran the Great\u2019s time. As for Noah, this part of the mythology is not very \u00a0clear, but, why the Bible has references to Ararat? Some historians believe that this story may have passed to the Jews via the Armenians, again during the time of Tigran the Great.<\/p>\n

    Finally, Armenian Identity should imply all these, not just whether the person believes in an abstract and unseen Allah or God (who was more or less created by \u201chuman\u201ds).
    \nAlso, the \u201cMuslim Armenian\u201d term does not bring much honor to those 1.5 million Armenians victims of the Genocide, who remained Armenian Christian and were massacred by the Turks. So please, don\u2019t talk to me about religious tolerance BS.<\/p>\n

    Tamar jan, please don\u2019t raise your children as \u201cMuslim Armenian\u201d. You can raise them as atheist, if you really hate the Armenian Christianity, or Saint Mesrob and Vartan, so much.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/li>\n

  27. \n
    \n
    \"Haro\" Haro<\/cite> says:<\/span><\/div>\n
    November 24, 2009 at 7:11 pm<\/span><\/div>\n

    One final note from me, watch this YouTube clip and think about what \u201cMuslim Armenian\u201d propaganda terminology is going to lead us into:<\/p>\n